Two NNHS alumni from different eras found themselves on the same starting line at the Presidio Challenge 5K cross-country race in San Francisco last Saturday. Josh Seeherman writes to say the course was challenging -- very hilly with bad sand dune footing -- and that the top two, who ran 16:18 and 16:27 respectively, were both sub 15:00 guys on the track.
Dan Chebot finished 19th in 17:47, while Josh finished 51st in 20:22.
Univ of Rochester sophomore Dan Hamilton had a strong race at the SUNY Geneseo Invitational on Saturday, running 27:13 for 8K, and finishing second for the Yellowjackets and 27th overall.
Although he didn't run in any of the races, it seems fitting to note that Westwood XC Coach (and NNHS grad) Tom Davis was at the Bay State Invitational on Saturday, where his team earned a plaque for finishing 3rd in the small schools division against very good competition.
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Thanks for noticing my team getting 3rd, Jon! Last year when I started at Westwood I inherited 17:43, 18:50, 19:15 and 20:30 as my top 4 returners. This year I'm expecting 7 guys under 17:00 minutes by the end of the year -- I use what you did at North as motivation for them every day. Hope all is well at Concord and hopefully I'll see you at a meet at some point.
You are so amazing.
7 under 17 for 5k? At EMASS? Has that happened ever? How bout 5? Is this Westwood team really capable of that? Guess you have to set goals high.
When you're the best coach in the world, your kids can do anything. This group will be coming back in the spring to run 7:40 for the 4x800 as well. Looking forward to seeing all of this unfold.
I'm not sure if "Anonymous" is being sarcastic, but if you are -- it's because of coaches with that type of mindset that probably 80% of high school kids don't even come close to reaching their potential. And as for the 4x800 running 7:40, if the guys stay healthy they will approach it. I had 5 guys run 1:25-1:27 in a 600m on the track after having already run 10 miles with 4 of it at 5:20 pace last week, so I can't imagine where they can be in 8 months from now.
And Mike -- of course you've got to set high goals. My philosophy is that if you set your goals high and fall short of them, you will still be better off than you had originally planned for. And as for my team, if they stay healthy and hungry, we will have at least 5. I had 3 of my guys do a workout in the race on Saturday, so they came through the mile in 4:55 and let off the gas to the finish, keeping in mind that their PR's in the mile in spring track ranged from 5:09-5:16. They still ran 17:29, 18:14 and 18:40 at a pretty comfortable effort. I've also got a guy, currently my 7th, who up until 12 weeks ago never ran more than 100m in his life and now he's running 18:20 (and Sunday ran 12 miles with us at 6:22 average), so if he gets more confident I have no doubt that he can break 17, too.
if these times are correct then these kids are in better shape than the times they are running which is perfectly fine right now but if you really expect 7 under 17 at the end of the year what is your ultimate goal just a state championship or to go to NXN and do well there? It seems to me it is hard to taper enough for EMASS and then still be in same shape by NXN
More than half the battle with my team is getting them to believe in themselves after years of a terrible and negative coach. So to be honest, I know exactly what they are capable of running; but whether or not they achieve those goals is another story. You can imagine how daunting it is to have your coach telling you that you can go from being 55th in the TVL Championships and a 5:20 miler to 16 months later a sub 17:00 5k runner.
And as far as NXN -- we're no where near that level. Our goal is to simply get to the All-State meet, which is something that Westwood has never done. I have no doubt that if I had the numbers that many big schools have that we'd be at that level, but I've got 23 kids on my team to work with, half of whom have no interest in working hard. I'd like to see Brookline make it to that level this year though as they've been doing excellent this year.
7 kids under 17? i would call that nxn level
Since my goal of having 7 guys break 17 minutes at some point this year seems to be overly optimistic to people reading this, I'm going to clarify. My teams goal is to have 7 individuals, at some point during the course of the season, break 17 minutes over 5k. Whether it's at Brown (super fast) or at Emass (not usually as fast), so be it. And that definitely does not qualify to be NXN level -- not even close. Using Brookline as an example, they would absolutely destroy my team and I don't even know where they stand in those rankings.
P.S. My sophomore year at Newton South we had 5 guys break 17:00 at Brown and we weren't very good, so I really don't see why people think that's extremely good.
Tom-
I agree that one needs to set high goals in order to be successful. Believing in oneself and being confident is one of the most important parts of running.
Still, you had a 18:20 guy who just started running do 12 miles at 6:22 pace?!? That must be pretty much all-out for him. 10 miles with 4 at 5:20 pace, then a 600 in 125-127? And none of those guys have broken 17 minutes yet? Obviously you are a great coach, but I'd worry that those guys are racing their workouts and not having the energy to run well in races. Be careful.
^agreed but i think that as long as you can win dual meets without needing to race great you can do this or just not care about dual meets.
And Brookline 2007 had 6 under 17 at EMASS and they were 7th at NXN. Now even if you dont have the top end talent (Gibson 15:39 and Wilson sub 16 at EMASS) you will still be competitive at NXN REGIONALS if you have 5 or more under 17 which would be expected if they peak at the end of the season
Brookline in 2005 had 4 under and a 5 and 6 at 17:04 and 17:14 respectively. Brookline in 2006 had 5 well under.
Jerzy - I agree completely with you about what you're saying in regards to the guys working a bit on the hard end. You were definitely a great example of what hard work can accomplish as you made huge improvements. But that's also one of my big training methods. I really believe in working your hard days very hard and your easy days easy. My best example of this would be my college team. They had HS PR's of 4:28, 4:28, 4:31, 4:33, and 4:35. Those five individuals now are running between 23:30-24:15 for 8k in XC and two of them have run 28:50 for 10k. And believe me when I say this, Richmond is hands down the hardest training team in the country (although this is bad for more people than it is good, as I proved considering my injury history there).
And the guy running 18:20 is way better than that, he just doesn't have the confidence to put it together yet. He was not even breathing on the long run, the kid is an unreal talent. I would not be surprised to see him running 1:52 and 4:12 by spring track.
You just make crazy predictions and say crazy stuff. You have an 18:20 guy running 4:12- one of the fastest miles in Mass. history- THIS spring. Not to mention 1:52. Why are you placing such high expectations on these kids by making these predictions. I once heard a wise (and successful) coach tell me that potential is meaningless, and what you DO is meaningful.
It's not that you shouldnt expect alot from your kids, but do so quietly. I stood next to you at the last chance meet at NDA this spring (I'm sure you don't know who I am) as you watched your kid place 3rd or so in the 800, and announced to anyone who would listen that he's going to be a 3-time state champion.
As a young coach, take this advice please. The louder you are about your expectations for these kids, the more people are going to root against it. Just keep training them as you are and they'll get to that place where you want them. Why boast about things they haven't even done yet?
Hey is Westwood capable of giving Pembroke a run for their money at D2 All States....?
a few of these guys will do what you think they can but a lot will crack under the pressure. They will get injured or they just wont be able to handle the pressure you are putting on them
Mike Miller - You are extremely ignorant. First of all, this "18:20" guy you refer to will approach the goals him and I have set out. The 800 that you're referring to was a 400. And the reason I claimed that he will be a State Champion (don't know here you pulled 3 time state champ from) is because that is how you motivate some people. Maybe you don't understand that, but I do. And also what you fail to realize is that he had never run more than 100m in his life or in training and he ran 50.8 seconds in the 400. You can do the math and figure out why I have no doubt that with a years worth of excellent training he will be one of the best.
And to answer your question about "high" expectations -- We, not just me, set goals based on what they've proven in some aspect that they can achieve. So what you see as a high goal, I see as a realistic goal. That's the difference. Also, something you don't know, is that I coached 14 All-State Champions by the time I was 20 years old. And guess what, each one of them had people telling them exactly as you are; "you can't do that, you're not good enough!". If I coached with that same mindset, my team would not have won our league title in track for the first time in 20 years. Nor would I have taken a group of 2:25 800m runners and in one track cycle turned them into an 8:10 4x800 (3 of whom ran 2:00).
And also if people want to "root against" a group of high school boys for having a confident coach who wants them to have the opportunity to achieve success and feel good about themselves, I couldn't care less.
Anonymous - I appreciate what you're saying and I agree. From these comments it may seem like I go out and tell my guys every day that they're going to break 17:00 and run 7:45 in the 4x800 but that's not the case. We very rarely ever talk about specific goals and in fact all I do every day is make sure that they're having fun and training as effectively as possible. So for my guys with very little talent, I motivate them every day by reminding them of how far they've come. And of course with my guys with talent, every now and then I remind them of where they can go.
And this is the last time I'm commenting on this, but I want to make it clear that I've never once boasted about anything as Mike seems to think. I've only talked about my teams goals with a few people. And in fact this whole comment crusade began because of some smart-ass making a sarcastic comment when all I was doing was letting Jon, one of the greatest high school coaches in Mass history and guy I have the highest respect for, know that I appreciated him noticing my team doing well as that means a lot to me.
Feel free to e-mail me at tomdavis@letsrun.com if you have anything else to say.
Tom-
You just keep making everyone on this thread's point for them. The more you talk, the less people will like you, and thus, your team. Why not just let their legs do the talking?
Perhaps I am ignorant for forgetting the 400 meter time of a guy in the last chance meet (who ran 52.xx BTW), or perhaps it just continues to underscore the point that it is NOT ABOUT YOU. It's about the kids. All you've talked about on this is yourself and how great a coach you are at age 20-something.
Just learn some humility and you'll be OK. I also have said all I have to say about this matter.
Jon- I still love your blog, but somebody had to say something to put this clown in his seat.
i am wondering how you coach 14 all state champs by the time you are 20....? ok so you legally can coach at 18...so that means in XC there would be 3 all state champs (if coaching the girls that would make 6)...so 3 and then for indoors we have the 600, 1000, 1mile and 2mile and that's 4 per season indoors....so thats 2 season of indoors so 8 + 3= 11 and then 2 season of outdoors 800, 1mile, 2mile....so 6 more...ok i got you at 17 all state champs...and depending when your birthday is...might be more. nice job. good luck the rest of the way.
Folks --
I'd like to request that this be the last comment on this particular post. Obviously, it has escalated past the point of being useful to anyone.
Anyone who knows Tom knows how much he cares about running and coaching. Will he make mistakes? Is he still learning? You bet. I make mistakes all the time, and I sure hope I'm still learning.
When I started coaching, I found it easy to find fault with other coaches. The more I coached, the more I realized that it's an exact science and that there are many ways to be effective. I was lucky to be able to learn from Jim Blackburn, Peter Martin, and Joe Tranchita -- three outstanding coaches who couldn't be more different.
It means a lot to me that people find this blog helpful. It means a lot to me that Tom regards me as such a good coach. I'm not that good, of course, but it was an absolute privilege to work with Tom and the NN teams he was on. We certainly had many conversations about balancing hard days and the need to stay healthy, and I think we learned a lot from each other. I have been really amazed to see how he has put his heart and soul into coaching at Westwood.
I understand we're a bunch of competitive people, and we "compete" in our philosophies, politics, and comments, as well as in races. However, I'd like to think that no one reading or commenting is actually rooting against any other team or coach, or hoping that they fail.
Let's get back to running.
Jon-
I feel like I caused some of this, so I'll finish it.
I understand where you're coming from and I want to apologize for hijacking the thread earlier. I should just make myself clear. I wasn't trying to necessarily pile on to Tom, who was blatantly insulted by a few anonymous posters before me, but I was trying to give a young, relatively brash coach some advice. When I was younger, Lord knows, I had alot to learn. I still do. I know Mike Glennon was the rival coach who gave me the most advice, and I rarely wanted to hear it, but always benefitted from it.
My 2nd post was more out of line, but that was in response to being called ignorant. Those who know me know I'm many things, and ignorant is not one of them. I should not have responded in kind.
Tom- good luck. You have lofty aspirtations for your kids, but who doesn't. My only advice is to listen to veteran coaches like Jim, Steve, and Jon and others like Mike Glennon. I did, and I'm a better coach for it. Your kids will do the talking for you, as all athletes do. We were simply trying to convince you to do that, but we all learn lessons in different ways.
Lastly, I never intended that I would root against Westwood or Tom, for that matter. What I meant to say was that some might take these comments to mean that there is much hubris coming from the coaching staff, and have a reason to do so.
Good luck...
Mike Miller
Weymouth Girls XC/ Track Coach
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